Status
Available
Call number
Series
Publication
Tor (New York, 2015). 1st edition, 1st printing. 368 pages. $25.99.
Description
Created as an experiment by the time-traveling goddess Pallas Athene, the Just City is a planned community, populated by over ten thousand children and a few hundred adult teachers from all eras of history, along with some handy robots from the far human future - all set down together on a Mediterranean island in the distant past. The student Simmea, born an Egyptian farmer's daughter sometime between 500 and 1000 A.D, is a brilliant child, eager for knowledge, ready to strive to be her best self. The teacher Maia was once Ethel, a young Victorian lady of much learning and few prospects, who prayed to Pallas Athene in an unguarded moment during a trip to Rome - and, in an instant, found herself in the Just City with grey-eyed Athene standing unmistakably before her. Meanwhile, Apollo - stunned by the realization that there are things mortals understand better than he does - has arranged to live a human life, and has come to the City as one of the children. He knows his true identity, and conceals it from his peers. For this lifetime, he is prone to all the troubles of being human. Then, a few years in, Sokrates arrives - the same Sokrates recorded by Plato himself - to ask all the troublesome questions you would expect.… (more)
Media reviews
The Just City is a glorious example of one of the primary purposes of speculative fiction: serving as a map to the potentials and miseries of a possible world. But it is also a map that should be scrawled with the words, “here be dragons.”
Brilliant, compelling, and frankly unputdownable, this will do what your Intro to Philosophy courses probably couldn't: make you want to read The Republic.
User reviews
LibraryThing member jsburbidge
This is the first book of a three-part whole (The Philosopher Kings and Necessity being the other two).
Athene decides to set up an actual attempt to build Plato's Republic during the Bronze Age, pulling in philosophers/classicists from throughout history as masters to start it up and populating it
This is at least as good as one might expect from Walton, given her current track record, and arguably her best work yet. The thematic elements that undergird it mesh effortlessly with the characterization and plot elements, and they are among the themes which are absolutely central not only to Plato but to a long succession of philosophers after him: justice/righteousness (both are translations of dikaiosyne), the good life, the nature of learning (via instruction and via experience (vide the Meno, not referenced directly in the work)), the nature of freedom. And there are hints of other themes which are promised to surface later (Necessity being an obvious one).
It's pretty well inevitable that any modern examination of the Republic as a realized city will focus on its failure modes. It stood at the font of the literary/philosophical stream that eventually gave us the Utopia (pretty well literally: More's Utopia is mainly the Republic with the numbers filed off, as are Swift's Houyhnhnms), but it's also very close to the modern dystopia by way of Bentham's panopticon.
Jo's take on it -- allowing the dynamics which break it down to operate effectively enough, early enough, to make it not become a simple dystopia is a welcome approach.
If the two following volumes keep to the same level, this will be a major work.
Athene decides to set up an actual attempt to build Plato's Republic during the Bronze Age, pulling in philosophers/classicists from throughout history as masters to start it up and populating it
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with ten-year-olds purchased over several hundred years of time travel from slave markets. Socrates gets pulled in five years after the foundation and the sorts of effects ensue that you might expect. (There was a reason the Athenians voted to get rid of him, and that was in a city where most people ignored him as much as they could. In a city of committed Platonists, though, this is not going to be the reaction...) Just to complicate matters, Apollo has also decided to become incarnate as one of the children in the city, and provides one of the viewpoints; interestingly, as this works out, the behavioural traits that Jo has handed her incarnate Apollo make him come across as resembling the high-functioning Autism spectrum.This is at least as good as one might expect from Walton, given her current track record, and arguably her best work yet. The thematic elements that undergird it mesh effortlessly with the characterization and plot elements, and they are among the themes which are absolutely central not only to Plato but to a long succession of philosophers after him: justice/righteousness (both are translations of dikaiosyne), the good life, the nature of learning (via instruction and via experience (vide the Meno, not referenced directly in the work)), the nature of freedom. And there are hints of other themes which are promised to surface later (Necessity being an obvious one).
It's pretty well inevitable that any modern examination of the Republic as a realized city will focus on its failure modes. It stood at the font of the literary/philosophical stream that eventually gave us the Utopia (pretty well literally: More's Utopia is mainly the Republic with the numbers filed off, as are Swift's Houyhnhnms), but it's also very close to the modern dystopia by way of Bentham's panopticon.
Jo's take on it -- allowing the dynamics which break it down to operate effectively enough, early enough, to make it not become a simple dystopia is a welcome approach.
If the two following volumes keep to the same level, this will be a major work.
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LibraryThing member Jaylia3
Time travel, robots, Greek gods, Atlantis, and Plato’s Republic. . .
The Just City opens with Apollo deeply perplexed. Why wouldn’t Daphne dally with him? He’s a god! Why would she rather be turned into a tree by Artemis? Athena tries to explain that humans care about making their own
It’s a huge project, but fortunately being outside temporal constraints herself Athena has the ability to time travel people and supplies around. After choosing the isolated, ancient island of Atlantis as the setting, Athena retrieves advanced robots from our distant future to act as laborers, brings in thousands of 10-year-olds purchased in bygone Mediterranean slave markets to be educated as per Plato, and whisks away hundreds of idealistic adults (some of them actual historical figures) from just about every human epoch to become instructors and administrators.
The story is told through first person narratives of three characters who, like everyone in the Just City, are working at becoming their ideal selves. Apollo has incarnated as an unnaturally gifted but socially clueless former slave boy seeking to understand the ways of humans. Helping him with that is Simmea, another of the city’s 10,000 children. She started out life sometime between 500 and 1000 AD on her family’s farm in North Africa, but after being captured and then sold into slavery Simmea relishes the unexpected, goddess given opportunity to cultivate her mind, strengthen her body, and create art. The third narrator, Maia was living in Victorian times deeply frustrated by the many restrictions placed on women when she prayed to Athena and was transported through time and space to Atlantis. Now she’s one of the adults teaching the Just City’s children and helping to make decisions about how to bring Plato’s vision to light.
There are problems to work out in the Just City--Plato has some awkward ideas about procreation for instance and sometimes instructors from vastly different historical eras have trouble coming to consensus--but everything is going along fairly smoothly. Then five years into the project Athena imports Socrates to teach the children philosophy, and true to form he starts stirring up trouble by questioning everything, from the Just City’s underlying principles to the treatment of the robots. Socrates quickly became one of my favorite characters--who else would try to turn robots into lovers of wisdom?
It sounds wacky and there is humor, but for me the story was completely gripping. The characters have strong but sometimes clashing emotional investments in Athena’s project and I was completely fascinated by all the machinations that went into their joint attempt to create Plato’s Just City.
I read Plato’s Republic in college, but that was decades ago and I don’t think having studied it is a prerequisite for enjoying this book if it sounds interesting to you. Most of what you need to know is in the story, and you can read a quick summary of The Republic on the internet if you want more. This is my first Jo Walton book, but I will definitely be reading others. She won Hugo and Nebula awards in 2012 for Among Others, so that may be next.
The Just City opens with Apollo deeply perplexed. Why wouldn’t Daphne dally with him? He’s a god! Why would she rather be turned into a tree by Artemis? Athena tries to explain that humans care about making their own
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choices, but that doesn’t make sense to Apollo’s god-brain way of thinking and he really wants to understand, so when Athena suggests he temporarily take on mortal form and join her philosophical experiment to create the Just City described in Plato’s Republic, Apollo is all in. It’s a huge project, but fortunately being outside temporal constraints herself Athena has the ability to time travel people and supplies around. After choosing the isolated, ancient island of Atlantis as the setting, Athena retrieves advanced robots from our distant future to act as laborers, brings in thousands of 10-year-olds purchased in bygone Mediterranean slave markets to be educated as per Plato, and whisks away hundreds of idealistic adults (some of them actual historical figures) from just about every human epoch to become instructors and administrators.
The story is told through first person narratives of three characters who, like everyone in the Just City, are working at becoming their ideal selves. Apollo has incarnated as an unnaturally gifted but socially clueless former slave boy seeking to understand the ways of humans. Helping him with that is Simmea, another of the city’s 10,000 children. She started out life sometime between 500 and 1000 AD on her family’s farm in North Africa, but after being captured and then sold into slavery Simmea relishes the unexpected, goddess given opportunity to cultivate her mind, strengthen her body, and create art. The third narrator, Maia was living in Victorian times deeply frustrated by the many restrictions placed on women when she prayed to Athena and was transported through time and space to Atlantis. Now she’s one of the adults teaching the Just City’s children and helping to make decisions about how to bring Plato’s vision to light.
There are problems to work out in the Just City--Plato has some awkward ideas about procreation for instance and sometimes instructors from vastly different historical eras have trouble coming to consensus--but everything is going along fairly smoothly. Then five years into the project Athena imports Socrates to teach the children philosophy, and true to form he starts stirring up trouble by questioning everything, from the Just City’s underlying principles to the treatment of the robots. Socrates quickly became one of my favorite characters--who else would try to turn robots into lovers of wisdom?
It sounds wacky and there is humor, but for me the story was completely gripping. The characters have strong but sometimes clashing emotional investments in Athena’s project and I was completely fascinated by all the machinations that went into their joint attempt to create Plato’s Just City.
I read Plato’s Republic in college, but that was decades ago and I don’t think having studied it is a prerequisite for enjoying this book if it sounds interesting to you. Most of what you need to know is in the story, and you can read a quick summary of The Republic on the internet if you want more. This is my first Jo Walton book, but I will definitely be reading others. She won Hugo and Nebula awards in 2012 for Among Others, so that may be next.
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LibraryThing member foggidawn
From outside of time, the goddess Athena decides to establish a city based on Plato's Republic, and Apollo decides to go along for the ride. Athena selects a Bronze Age location that will be destroyed by natural disaster long before anyone is likely to take notice of it, gathers people from all
Of course, even without Socrates, there were bound to be bumps in the road. The teachers (those people who had prayed to Athena that the city be established) fervently believe in the goodness of the cause, but they are lacking in much of the practical knowledge necessary to running a city. I don't want to give anything away, so I'm going to avoid discussing some of those particular bumps. I'll just say that Walton has a keen understanding of both Platonic philosophy and of human nature, making this a read that is both enjoyable and thought-provoking. My only issue with it was the ending: I had not realized that it is the first book in a series, so the abrupt ending was entirely unexpected and felt almost like a cliffhanger to me. But in spite of the ending, I'm thoroughly glad I read this book, and I'm anxiously awaiting the sequels.
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eras of human history who have prayed to her asking that the Republic be made a reality, collects ten-year-old slave children (of whom Apollo is one; he decided to go for the authentic experience of being reborn as a human) from a few different centuries to populate the city, and gathers worker robots from the late 21st century so that no humans need be enslaved to do the day-to-day work of the city. And then, when things are up and running, she brings in Socrates, just for fun.Of course, even without Socrates, there were bound to be bumps in the road. The teachers (those people who had prayed to Athena that the city be established) fervently believe in the goodness of the cause, but they are lacking in much of the practical knowledge necessary to running a city. I don't want to give anything away, so I'm going to avoid discussing some of those particular bumps. I'll just say that Walton has a keen understanding of both Platonic philosophy and of human nature, making this a read that is both enjoyable and thought-provoking. My only issue with it was the ending: I had not realized that it is the first book in a series, so the abrupt ending was entirely unexpected and felt almost like a cliffhanger to me. But in spite of the ending, I'm thoroughly glad I read this book, and I'm anxiously awaiting the sequels.
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LibraryThing member johnwbeha
You never know what to expect from Jo Walton, except to have your thoughts provoked and to be able to absorb exceptional writing. Another reviewer described her as "genre-busting", which is apt. This is a strange mixture of fantasy and philosophy which carries the reader into some deep
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philosophical waters, whilst retaining an air of the fantastical. I am a total devotee and have already tucked away books 2 and 3 of this series, albeit that I find it hard to imagine where she is going to go from here. Show Less
LibraryThing member zeborah
The one downside of reading this was recognising the voice from previous Walton novels - a very distinctive short-sentenced matter-of-factness that works wonderfully for young pov characters dealing with trauma, but when it's in every pov - including a god who doesn't know the meaning of
But! it's a voice I always enjoy reading, and the story is a lovely layered exploration of what it means to try and create a just society based on insufficient and flawed adults buying up a few thousand children from slave markets and kidnapping Socrates, as you do. Also, any story that mixes ancient Greece and timetravel and gods and artificial intelligence has got to be onto something.
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vulnerability and has quite some centuries under his belt - it's a bit repetitive.But! it's a voice I always enjoy reading, and the story is a lovely layered exploration of what it means to try and create a just society based on insufficient and flawed adults buying up a few thousand children from slave markets and kidnapping Socrates, as you do. Also, any story that mixes ancient Greece and timetravel and gods and artificial intelligence has got to be onto something.
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LibraryThing member lavaturtle
This book was really interesting because it was full of big ideas - utopic city! ancient philosophy! set up by gods! - but didn't shrink from exploring how those big ideas affected actual, realistic people. Nothing is sacred, no one is infallible, and the human experiences of marginalized people
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are at least as important as the whims of gods or the plans of philosophers and city planners. Show Less
LibraryThing member wealhtheowwylfing
Athena and Apollo try to create Plato's Republic. They pull together philosophers and dreamers from all eras of history to set the city up, then people it with ten year old Greek slave children. The book follows two of these children, Simmea and Pythias (actually Apollo reincarnated as a mortal),
The characters are wonderfully well crafted. Their minds are so perfectly described that it was only about two thirds of the way through the book, when one character describes another, that I realized I had no idea what they looked like, and hadn't cared at all. But of course physical appearance does matter, and from that point on I was able to interpret the characters and their relationships with each other with that added knowledge. Simmea was my favorite, but Socrates shows up near the end of the book and is a wonderful trouble maker.
The book is also quite frustrating. I was continually arguing with it, or with characters, and I really enjoy that aspect of it. I think engaging the reader in that way was deliberate on Walton's part, and it definitely worked on me. I swallowed this book whole in a matter of hours, so involved was I. But Walton and the philosophers she draws on touch on so many ideas and points of contention that I often felt that I'd been ripped away from one before I was quite done with it and forced to move on to the next philosophical question. Too, the main theme or question of this book seems to be that of freedom, volition, and consent. Walton uses robots and historical systems of slavery for part of this question, but again and again rape comes up as well. (POV characters are raped on-page three times in this book, and a lot of other rapes are mentioned as well. It's disturbing, and something you might want to brace yourself for.) The book ends abruptly, after a debate between Athena and Socrates. I look forward to reading what comes next!
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as they grow and learn within the system Plato's intellectual descendants have hammered out.The characters are wonderfully well crafted. Their minds are so perfectly described that it was only about two thirds of the way through the book, when one character describes another, that I realized I had no idea what they looked like, and hadn't cared at all. But of course physical appearance does matter, and from that point on I was able to interpret the characters and their relationships with each other with that added knowledge. Simmea was my favorite, but Socrates shows up near the end of the book and is a wonderful trouble maker.
The book is also quite frustrating. I was continually arguing with it, or with characters, and I really enjoy that aspect of it. I think engaging the reader in that way was deliberate on Walton's part, and it definitely worked on me. I swallowed this book whole in a matter of hours, so involved was I. But Walton and the philosophers she draws on touch on so many ideas and points of contention that I often felt that I'd been ripped away from one before I was quite done with it and forced to move on to the next philosophical question. Too, the main theme or question of this book seems to be that of freedom, volition, and consent. Walton uses robots and historical systems of slavery for part of this question, but again and again rape comes up as well. (POV characters are raped on-page three times in this book, and a lot of other rapes are mentioned as well. It's disturbing, and something you might want to brace yourself for.) The book ends abruptly, after a debate between Athena and Socrates. I look forward to reading what comes next!
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LibraryThing member ehines
Walton is a really great writer to spend time with. Though I am less enthusiastic about this project than the Small Change series, I don't begrudge her a minute of my time spent reading. I very much enjoyed this. This is a philosophical novel. And a pretty good one. But philosophical novels have
But all in all, the novel is interesting, a well-executed, but highly imperfect stab at something pretty hard to accomplish. Part of the difficulty in this series compared to the last is that Small Change really starts with a "small change" (well, not so small, but singular) imposed on what would otherwise have been our early twentieth century. So most of that world comes ready made in our minds. Not so much a completely-synthetic world with no family life based on Plato's Republic. So I think Walton found herself having to draw much more heavily on (mainly contemporary YA) generic tropes to provide context for this narrative. Which is cool because those tropes are less masculinist and imperialist than some of the obvious alternatives, but which rob some of the POVs of their individuality. Our Victorian doesn't seem very different from a late-twentieth century academic. And neither does a 21st-century academic. Or an actual Renaissance man. We have to be specifically reminded that these people actually come from such disparate backgrounds repeatedly, because, for the most part, it isn't obvious from the characterization.
The one character who does seem particular rapes one of the main characters early on and is mostly sidelined. A great opportunity was missed there, I think.
The book focuses a lot on choice, with slavery and rape as the two big themes. But these aren't really terribly productive as themes--consensus on them is too strong already, and the book tends to simply to acclaim that consensus without complicating it. Maybe because that consensus is rather vigorously policed these days.
Which is a disappointment. I can think of a number of turns the story could have taken to make the characters (and us) think a bit harder about these issues, but the narrative seems almost inevitably to be drawn toward platitudes. I hope for better in the second book.
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drawbacks. The approaches that come immediately to mind are novels that essentially just feed you big piles of philosophical meat in the midst of the novel (Name of the Rose), and then there are those that give you small doses of philosophical medicine mixed with honey of plot and character. The Just City is of the later type, and, unfortunately some of the honey is a bit cloying--a bit too YA, a bit too reassuring to our twenty-something selves.But all in all, the novel is interesting, a well-executed, but highly imperfect stab at something pretty hard to accomplish. Part of the difficulty in this series compared to the last is that Small Change really starts with a "small change" (well, not so small, but singular) imposed on what would otherwise have been our early twentieth century. So most of that world comes ready made in our minds. Not so much a completely-synthetic world with no family life based on Plato's Republic. So I think Walton found herself having to draw much more heavily on (mainly contemporary YA) generic tropes to provide context for this narrative. Which is cool because those tropes are less masculinist and imperialist than some of the obvious alternatives, but which rob some of the POVs of their individuality. Our Victorian doesn't seem very different from a late-twentieth century academic. And neither does a 21st-century academic. Or an actual Renaissance man. We have to be specifically reminded that these people actually come from such disparate backgrounds repeatedly, because, for the most part, it isn't obvious from the characterization.
The one character who does seem particular rapes one of the main characters early on and is mostly sidelined. A great opportunity was missed there, I think.
The book focuses a lot on choice, with slavery and rape as the two big themes. But these aren't really terribly productive as themes--consensus on them is too strong already, and the book tends to simply to acclaim that consensus without complicating it. Maybe because that consensus is rather vigorously policed these days.
Which is a disappointment. I can think of a number of turns the story could have taken to make the characters (and us) think a bit harder about these issues, but the narrative seems almost inevitably to be drawn toward platitudes. I hope for better in the second book.
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LibraryThing member AltheaAnn
An interesting book about an interesting project.
As an experiment investigating human nature, the goddess Athena decides to set up a 'Just City' based on Plato's 'Republic.'
To do this, she zaps every human being who ever prayed to her that they could live in Plato's 'Just City' (there are more than
To do this, first, they need to collect citizens. Children purchased from slave markets will do the trick. Athena's brother Apollo, as well as Artemis, think the idea is interesting, so they get in on the action. And Athena likes Socrates, so he gets collected too, even against his will.
What transpires is less a novel, and more of Jo Walton's response to Plato. In many ways (and intentionally) reading this book is similar to reading Plato. Characters exist as mouthpieces for certain points of view, and they agreeably talk about just what the author wants them to. There's very little action, and quite a lot of exploration of various ideas.
Walton's main themes in the book concern free will and volition, the nature of intelligence (including the possibility and ramifications of artificial intelligence), the ethics of power and truth, human nature itself, and whether or not utopia is even possible.
The details of many of the issues brought up in the discussion of many of these issues are very contemporary in feel - more so than the characters' purported backgrounds would seem to indicate. I also got very little sense of many of the characters, except for the few main viewpoint ones, which was a bit of a shame, considering the premise of their widely diverse backgrounds. But again, this isn't a character study - it's a work linking current thinking on women's rights, consent issues, &c. with Plato's writings.
If an extended treatment of these ideas sounds interesting to you: you will love this book. If you expected a sci-fi or fantasy novel: you may be slightly disappointed. I felt that it was worth reading; but doubt that it will touch so many people emotionally the way 'Among Others' did.
Much appreciation to Tor Books and NetGalley for the opportunity to read this book.
As an experiment investigating human nature, the goddess Athena decides to set up a 'Just City' based on Plato's 'Republic.'
To do this, she zaps every human being who ever prayed to her that they could live in Plato's 'Just City' (there are more than
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one might guess, from widely varied times and locations), and collects them all in ancient history, on the remote island that's sometimes been known as Atlantis. Their prayers are answered: with the goddess' help, these people will get to create a city based on Plato's writings.To do this, first, they need to collect citizens. Children purchased from slave markets will do the trick. Athena's brother Apollo, as well as Artemis, think the idea is interesting, so they get in on the action. And Athena likes Socrates, so he gets collected too, even against his will.
What transpires is less a novel, and more of Jo Walton's response to Plato. In many ways (and intentionally) reading this book is similar to reading Plato. Characters exist as mouthpieces for certain points of view, and they agreeably talk about just what the author wants them to. There's very little action, and quite a lot of exploration of various ideas.
Walton's main themes in the book concern free will and volition, the nature of intelligence (including the possibility and ramifications of artificial intelligence), the ethics of power and truth, human nature itself, and whether or not utopia is even possible.
The details of many of the issues brought up in the discussion of many of these issues are very contemporary in feel - more so than the characters' purported backgrounds would seem to indicate. I also got very little sense of many of the characters, except for the few main viewpoint ones, which was a bit of a shame, considering the premise of their widely diverse backgrounds. But again, this isn't a character study - it's a work linking current thinking on women's rights, consent issues, &c. with Plato's writings.
If an extended treatment of these ideas sounds interesting to you: you will love this book. If you expected a sci-fi or fantasy novel: you may be slightly disappointed. I felt that it was worth reading; but doubt that it will touch so many people emotionally the way 'Among Others' did.
Much appreciation to Tor Books and NetGalley for the opportunity to read this book.
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LibraryThing member TheDivineOomba
This is an odd book to review. On one hand, the whole plot felt pretentious - forced. On the other hand, it was interesting. I like the Gods in this story. The main characters are likeable, but are a bit shallow - they are written to fit the story, rather than the story written to fit them.
I do
If I get some time, maybe I'll re-read it, see where it takes me, but not now.
I do
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like knowing more about what a "Just City" would actually feel like and knowing a bit more about Plato's Republic is always a good thing. I gave up at the start at the start of Sokrates investigation into the robots, but lost interest and never picked up the book again.If I get some time, maybe I'll re-read it, see where it takes me, but not now.
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LibraryThing member tpi.kirjat
The Greek gods Apollo and Athene want to see how Plato’s Republic would work. They bring on the island of Thera (which will be completely destroyed in volcanic eruption removing any changes to the real timeline) 10,000 ten-year-old children, who are bought from the slave traders during several
An extremely good book which examines the fascinating basic idea from many different viewpoints without forgetting some of the less idealistic and ethical details of the great plan. Are they supporting and encouraging slavery when they bought the children? Is it ok to bring children, even freed slaves, to the city without their consent? Is Plato’s idealistic and utopic plan really the best way to run a city? Why are the gods doing what they do? Is it reasonable to assume that gods – especially Greek gods – are good or mean well? An enjoyable thought experiment, which demanded some background checking about ancient philosophers and philosophies. The downside is that the story will continue in the next book – I believe that this story could and should have been told in one book.
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centuries and adult supervisors (who at some time have prayed for Plato’s Republic being real) through history – many of them women who haven’t been able to be what they want at their own time. The children are then brought up using the teachings of Plato as a guide. The city is filled with real artwork which has been rescued from fires and disasters during the whole human history and its library is lifted from Alexandria just before the Fire. Both Apollo and Athene are living in the city disguised as children. Everything seems to go according to the plan, but when children are old enough, Socrates is brought in to teach rhetoric and he starts to ask questions, some hard and very disruptive questions.An extremely good book which examines the fascinating basic idea from many different viewpoints without forgetting some of the less idealistic and ethical details of the great plan. Are they supporting and encouraging slavery when they bought the children? Is it ok to bring children, even freed slaves, to the city without their consent? Is Plato’s idealistic and utopic plan really the best way to run a city? Why are the gods doing what they do? Is it reasonable to assume that gods – especially Greek gods – are good or mean well? An enjoyable thought experiment, which demanded some background checking about ancient philosophers and philosophies. The downside is that the story will continue in the next book – I believe that this story could and should have been told in one book.
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LibraryThing member ladycato
I received a free copy of this hardcover book at World Fantasy 2014 or Locus Weekend 2015.
My feelings on the book are mixed. The fantasy and science fiction elements are light, though this book is indeed about the machinations of the gods: Athene founding an experimental version of Plato's Just
Not a lot happens. Really, the book is about philosophy; it's very interesting at times, and it's exciting when the actual Sokrates shows up, but it also feels like it drags on far too long. I also didn't expect so much subject matter to dwell on rape. That said, Walton handles the subject with the respect and never glorifies it, and I like how she develops Apollo's consciousness about it... but still, there is a lot of talk about it and other enforced sexual matters (breeding festivals and child abuse) that deserve a trigger warning.
I found it to be a thoughtful, if sometimes uncomfortable, book. I certainly know a lot more about Plato, and I enjoyed getting to know her version of Sokrates.
My feelings on the book are mixed. The fantasy and science fiction elements are light, though this book is indeed about the machinations of the gods: Athene founding an experimental version of Plato's Just
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City populated by people and children from across time. It also heavily features Apollo, who casts aside his divinity to full experience human life as one of the child arrivals in the city.Not a lot happens. Really, the book is about philosophy; it's very interesting at times, and it's exciting when the actual Sokrates shows up, but it also feels like it drags on far too long. I also didn't expect so much subject matter to dwell on rape. That said, Walton handles the subject with the respect and never glorifies it, and I like how she develops Apollo's consciousness about it... but still, there is a lot of talk about it and other enforced sexual matters (breeding festivals and child abuse) that deserve a trigger warning.
I found it to be a thoughtful, if sometimes uncomfortable, book. I certainly know a lot more about Plato, and I enjoyed getting to know her version of Sokrates.
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LibraryThing member AlanPoulter
It is the way of things that dystopias are easier to realise than utopias. This glorious work bucks this trend as it sets up a very an original model. I look forward to the remaining books in the series.
LibraryThing member SChant
An easy read, but not much of a story. I probably would have appreciated it more if I'd read Plato.
LibraryThing member gypsysmom
I am glad to see that the LibraryThing page for this book says it is book number one in the Thessaly series because I want to know more about what happens to the people of the Just City. I hope Walton has the next book in the series ready to go because I don't want to wait too long to find
Plato conceived the idea of a city that would be an ideal place to raise Philosopher Kings who would know The Good, the Truth and the one unchanging Excellence in The Republic. The goddess Athene decided to experiment with Plato's idea and she chose a site on an island that would eventually be destroyed by a volcano so there would be no trace left. Her brother, the god Apollo, felt that the city would be a good place to live a mortal life so that he could learn lessons that only mortals could teach him. So Apollo was incarnated as a boy who was sold into slavery when his parents' farm failed. Ten year olds from around the Mediterranean but from different eras were purchased from slave markets by Athene's deputies. Ten thousand and eighty children, half from each gender, were brought to the city. Each child was assigned a house with six other children of the same gender, each house was assigned to a dining hall with nine other houses and each dining hall belonged to a tribe devoted to a god or goddess. There were twelve tribes in all. There were three hundred adult masters who, at some time in their lives, had prayed to Athene. Two masters, one male and one female, presided over each dining hall and the children could come to them for assistance with problems. Other masters taught subjects such as music, mathematics, gymnastics, wrestling and astronomy. There were also robots provided by Athene to do most of the hard work required to house, clothe and feed everyone. Then five years after the founding of the city Socrates appeared, snatched from his life moments before his death. Socrates taught some of the children rhetoric and the art of debate. However, true to his nickname of the gadfly, Socrates also questioned the tenets of the city and asked the hard questions. One of his students was Simmea, a scrawny plain female brought from Egypt. Although not much to look at Simmea was brilliant and Apollo, in his incarnate self, was very drawn to her. Once the children reached the age of eighteen they were paired off for one day every four months so that the next generation of children could be raised in the city. Between the Socratic dialogues and the sexual awakenings the ideals of Plato came under a lot of scrutiny. Discontent abounded.
Before reading this book I had never had a desire to read Plato but today I happened to see a copy of The Republic in a used book store and I could not pass it up. This is the way my TBR pile grows!
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out.Plato conceived the idea of a city that would be an ideal place to raise Philosopher Kings who would know The Good, the Truth and the one unchanging Excellence in The Republic. The goddess Athene decided to experiment with Plato's idea and she chose a site on an island that would eventually be destroyed by a volcano so there would be no trace left. Her brother, the god Apollo, felt that the city would be a good place to live a mortal life so that he could learn lessons that only mortals could teach him. So Apollo was incarnated as a boy who was sold into slavery when his parents' farm failed. Ten year olds from around the Mediterranean but from different eras were purchased from slave markets by Athene's deputies. Ten thousand and eighty children, half from each gender, were brought to the city. Each child was assigned a house with six other children of the same gender, each house was assigned to a dining hall with nine other houses and each dining hall belonged to a tribe devoted to a god or goddess. There were twelve tribes in all. There were three hundred adult masters who, at some time in their lives, had prayed to Athene. Two masters, one male and one female, presided over each dining hall and the children could come to them for assistance with problems. Other masters taught subjects such as music, mathematics, gymnastics, wrestling and astronomy. There were also robots provided by Athene to do most of the hard work required to house, clothe and feed everyone. Then five years after the founding of the city Socrates appeared, snatched from his life moments before his death. Socrates taught some of the children rhetoric and the art of debate. However, true to his nickname of the gadfly, Socrates also questioned the tenets of the city and asked the hard questions. One of his students was Simmea, a scrawny plain female brought from Egypt. Although not much to look at Simmea was brilliant and Apollo, in his incarnate self, was very drawn to her. Once the children reached the age of eighteen they were paired off for one day every four months so that the next generation of children could be raised in the city. Between the Socratic dialogues and the sexual awakenings the ideals of Plato came under a lot of scrutiny. Discontent abounded.
Before reading this book I had never had a desire to read Plato but today I happened to see a copy of The Republic in a used book store and I could not pass it up. This is the way my TBR pile grows!
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LibraryThing member Lindoula
I think the end was a bit abrupt, but I really enjoyed this book.
LibraryThing member janerawoof
The goddess Athena and god Apollo [who incarnates as a human] decide to test out Plato's idea of a perfect society as set out in the [book:The Republic|30289]. They find an out-of-the-way island [sometimes called Atlantis], a group of 10-year olds and a group of famous people from all times and
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places [from classical Greece and Rome to our future] and recruit them as teachers. The novel hasn't much plot but is a novel of ideas about society; community vs. the individual; trust; happiness; justice; freedom vs. slavery through the device of the "workers". in other words, robots, Athena brings back from the far future, to do all the work, so the children can grow up and the boldest and brightest, the "golds", can be trained as philosopher-kings. Much was on women's equality with men. The novel did give you things to think about. Show Less
LibraryThing member bibliovermis
This was much more extended thought experiment than novel; it had just the barest bones of a plot, and was really almost directly a Socratic dialogue about justice, volition, humanity, and love—but with robots—and I loved it.
LibraryThing member Herenya
The Just City is an experiment, Pallas Athene's experiment. An island city, structured in accordance with Plato's Republic. The masters are adults who have all wished to be a part of such a society, plucked from different eras. The children are Greek-speaking ten year olds who have be "rescued"
The story unfolds from the perspective of Apollo, who has (temporarily) set aside his powers in order to experience life as a mortal in order to learn about volition and equal significance, and who arrives on the island as one of the children; Maia, one of the masters, who was originally a clergyman's daughter from Victorian England; and Simmea, a girl from a farming village near Alexandria.
I really liked the characters and was engrossed in the story because I wanted to know what happened to them, but certainly this is a story where you have be interested in the concept. It is a bit like Walton's My Real Children in that respect - the what if? is absolutely central.
It's obvious from the beginning that the city is not going to be perfect. We didn't have the least idea in the world what we were letting ourselves in for, Apollo says at the beginning - and the question is not Will anything go wrong? but rather, How much will go wrong?
This feels rather appropriate in a novel featuring Greek gods.
The Just City is fascinating, thought-provoking and at times very unsettling. It is an unusual - but successful - blend of history, and myth, and science-fiction. It's about authority, and conformity, and philosophy, and society - particularly the role of women in society - but it is also about the individuals who make up that society.
I found the ending somewhat unsatisfying, but the story isn't over - there are sequels.
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from slavery. The slaves are robots from our future, whose intelligence becomes a matter of debate.The story unfolds from the perspective of Apollo, who has (temporarily) set aside his powers in order to experience life as a mortal in order to learn about volition and equal significance, and who arrives on the island as one of the children; Maia, one of the masters, who was originally a clergyman's daughter from Victorian England; and Simmea, a girl from a farming village near Alexandria.
I really liked the characters and was engrossed in the story because I wanted to know what happened to them, but certainly this is a story where you have be interested in the concept. It is a bit like Walton's My Real Children in that respect - the what if? is absolutely central.
It's obvious from the beginning that the city is not going to be perfect. We didn't have the least idea in the world what we were letting ourselves in for, Apollo says at the beginning - and the question is not Will anything go wrong? but rather, How much will go wrong?
This feels rather appropriate in a novel featuring Greek gods.
The Just City is fascinating, thought-provoking and at times very unsettling. It is an unusual - but successful - blend of history, and myth, and science-fiction. It's about authority, and conformity, and philosophy, and society - particularly the role of women in society - but it is also about the individuals who make up that society.
I found the ending somewhat unsatisfying, but the story isn't over - there are sequels.
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LibraryThing member jwhenderson
This was the latest book discussed in our monthly SF reading group. The author, Jo Walton, presents a Utopian world modeled on the Republic of Plato. In doing so she creates a story that is a blend of fantasy and science fiction with the emphasis on the former. This raised a perennial question for
In this book we have a new city created on an island by the Greek goddess, Pallas Athene. While Apollo, her brother, is involved as well (he chooses to participate in the experiment in human form), the main characters are young children, teachers, Masters, and some robots, all of whom have been brought together to form the Just City as defined in the Republic of Plato. Among the major characters is a student, Simmea, from Egypt who demonstrates a thirst for knowledge that would make Socrates proud. There is also a teacher, Maia, formerly a Victorian lady who is brought to the city by Athene when she makes a prayer to her. Other primary characters include a boy named Kebes and Pytheas (Apollo). There are other famous figures that are brought together as masters for the students, but none more famous than Socrates.
The masters are generally happy to build and live in the Just City, but not all the children are, especially since it’s suggested that the masters encouraged the growth of slavery in various eras by purchasing so many children. No matter that the children are well-treated and educated, they're not allowed to leave and must follow strict rules whose provenance they can’t entirely understand, since they’re not even allowed to read The Republic. The justness of the City becomes even more questionable when evidence accumulates that the mechanical workers used in place of slaves may actually be sentient.
It is when Socrates joins the city and brings his traditional questioning method that the utopian project really begins to experience significant growing pains. It is when the restraints imposed by the city as defined by Plato become too difficult for those in the city to follow that the story becomes both more interesting and sometimes unappealing. It is when the rigidity of the ideal city as defined by Plato creates a world where freedom becomes "freedom to obey", not freedom to question and act based on the reasoning of your own mind. This dichotomy is exacerbated by Socrates' insistence on dialogues with the students. After all, Socrates did not create the City or its rules. Here is an example from a dialogue between Socrates and one of the students about the system of taking children away from their parents and raising them together:
"'But you will say, will you not, that the purpose of the system is not to maximize individual happiness but the justice of the whole city?'
'Yes,' she said.
'And how does this maximize justice?'
'People do not form individual attachments but are attached to all the others, and people do not care about their own children than all the children of the city.'
'But that's nonsense,' Socrates said gently. 'They do form individual attachments, they're just pursuing them in secret. And they do care more about their own children, they're just prevented from seeing them.'" (p 352)
Athene interjects that there are good reasons for this such as avoiding the development of family rivalries. That does not persuade either the children or Socrates.
There’s often more thought experiment than plot here. The fictional and mythological protagonists have a certain appeal, but it’s disappointing that Walton barely sketches most of the historical characters who play minor roles in the story—readers will have to do the research themselves in order to flesh them out. The best aspect of this novel is the way that the students develop, socialize, and learn about the world. While the prose sometimes reminded me of a "Young Adult" novel, despite that possible drawback the combination of philosophic discussion and ideas was both entertaining and thought-provoking. It helps if you have previous read Plato's Republic, but if you haven't and are interested in the ideas presented here you may be encouraged to pick it up and read the original for yourself.
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the group: is this book a science fiction novel or not? My response is to consider it an example of speculative fiction as discussed and defined by Margaret Atwood and others. In this book we have a new city created on an island by the Greek goddess, Pallas Athene. While Apollo, her brother, is involved as well (he chooses to participate in the experiment in human form), the main characters are young children, teachers, Masters, and some robots, all of whom have been brought together to form the Just City as defined in the Republic of Plato. Among the major characters is a student, Simmea, from Egypt who demonstrates a thirst for knowledge that would make Socrates proud. There is also a teacher, Maia, formerly a Victorian lady who is brought to the city by Athene when she makes a prayer to her. Other primary characters include a boy named Kebes and Pytheas (Apollo). There are other famous figures that are brought together as masters for the students, but none more famous than Socrates.
The masters are generally happy to build and live in the Just City, but not all the children are, especially since it’s suggested that the masters encouraged the growth of slavery in various eras by purchasing so many children. No matter that the children are well-treated and educated, they're not allowed to leave and must follow strict rules whose provenance they can’t entirely understand, since they’re not even allowed to read The Republic. The justness of the City becomes even more questionable when evidence accumulates that the mechanical workers used in place of slaves may actually be sentient.
It is when Socrates joins the city and brings his traditional questioning method that the utopian project really begins to experience significant growing pains. It is when the restraints imposed by the city as defined by Plato become too difficult for those in the city to follow that the story becomes both more interesting and sometimes unappealing. It is when the rigidity of the ideal city as defined by Plato creates a world where freedom becomes "freedom to obey", not freedom to question and act based on the reasoning of your own mind. This dichotomy is exacerbated by Socrates' insistence on dialogues with the students. After all, Socrates did not create the City or its rules. Here is an example from a dialogue between Socrates and one of the students about the system of taking children away from their parents and raising them together:
"'But you will say, will you not, that the purpose of the system is not to maximize individual happiness but the justice of the whole city?'
'Yes,' she said.
'And how does this maximize justice?'
'People do not form individual attachments but are attached to all the others, and people do not care about their own children than all the children of the city.'
'But that's nonsense,' Socrates said gently. 'They do form individual attachments, they're just pursuing them in secret. And they do care more about their own children, they're just prevented from seeing them.'" (p 352)
Athene interjects that there are good reasons for this such as avoiding the development of family rivalries. That does not persuade either the children or Socrates.
There’s often more thought experiment than plot here. The fictional and mythological protagonists have a certain appeal, but it’s disappointing that Walton barely sketches most of the historical characters who play minor roles in the story—readers will have to do the research themselves in order to flesh them out. The best aspect of this novel is the way that the students develop, socialize, and learn about the world. While the prose sometimes reminded me of a "Young Adult" novel, despite that possible drawback the combination of philosophic discussion and ideas was both entertaining and thought-provoking. It helps if you have previous read Plato's Republic, but if you haven't and are interested in the ideas presented here you may be encouraged to pick it up and read the original for yourself.
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LibraryThing member iBeth
This book is hard to describe. It tells the story of an experimental city based on Plato's _Republic_ and populated both by those who prayed to Athena throughout history and children purchased from slave markets. Oh, and the god Apollo. The story is told from several viewpoints: Maia, who begged
I started the book, thinking, "eh, not sure I'll like it but I've enjoyed Walton's other books." Wow! I was engrossed from the very beginning. Often I find myself skipping ahead to the end of a book, but not with this one--I didn't want to miss a page. All of the moral questions are raised in a very nuanced way; this city is not fully a dystopia or a utopia, but it sure is an interesting place to read about.
When I started the book, I had no idea that it was the beginning of a trilogy. Sure wish I could read the rest of the series RIGHT NOW.
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Athena to help her find a place where she had value; Simmea, stolen by slavers to meet a demand for child slaves created by the city; and Apollo, living in human form in order to learn more about humanity. I started the book, thinking, "eh, not sure I'll like it but I've enjoyed Walton's other books." Wow! I was engrossed from the very beginning. Often I find myself skipping ahead to the end of a book, but not with this one--I didn't want to miss a page. All of the moral questions are raised in a very nuanced way; this city is not fully a dystopia or a utopia, but it sure is an interesting place to read about.
When I started the book, I had no idea that it was the beginning of a trilogy. Sure wish I could read the rest of the series RIGHT NOW.
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LibraryThing member SESchend
Fascinating read; engaging characters with a few exceptions; alas, the abrupt ending didn't work well for me (& not due to other expectations about how to end an Atlantis story).
LibraryThing member Silvernfire
I'm glad I took a chance on this book. The only book by Jo Walton that I'd read before this was Among Others, and while I'd thought it was all right, I wasn't as enthusiastic about it as many other people were. I let myself be lured into reading this because there were Greek gods, and fresh from
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reading Antigoddess and Mortal Gods, I was curious to see how another author would write them. The book is certainly saturated in philosophy, but Walton hasn't forgotten to develop her characters or keep the story moving, so it doesn't read like a treatise on Why Utopias Fail. Indeed, she avoids the easy way out: this Just City definitely has problems, but it's not a complete failure. The book covers the first eight years of the Just City, and there's not a lot of action—no grand armies threatening invasion, for instance. Even though all the characters were passionately devoted to the idea of making the Just City work, I wasn't sure I believed that they could forget their cultural upbringings as easily as they did. And I'm glad I know there's a sequel forthcoming, because this book stops more than ends. But I enjoyed this book enough that I'm really looking forward to that sequel. Show Less
LibraryThing member raschneid
3.5. The Just City is a thought experiment about a thought experiment - what if an anachronistic band of philosophers, numerologists, and classics nerds traveled through time to found Plato's Republic on the island of Atlantis? You can't ask for a better premise than that.
The Just City was good fun
However, the last act or so didn't delight me the way the beginning did. The narrative lost its tension, and the metaphysics of Walton's world stopped working for me.
I should explain that I am a very bad reader of fantasy fiction when it comes to metaphysics. I am a hopeless materialist and when fantasy worlds start making metaphysical claims that aren't true in our world, I find it easy to feel alienated as a reader. (An example that readers might recognize comes from Gaiman's A Game of You, when Wanda is excluded from female magic because she's not biologically female. I love A Game of You, but I think it's an odd choice to make Sandman's gods reinforce a gender essentialism that in our world is purely cultural.)
So I am all for reading about a world where the Greek gods and reincarnation are real, but Walton lost me when she made these facts central to the characters' philosophical dialogues. Maybe I am missing some subtlety of what she was trying to accomplish, but since the book lost me narratively as well, I'm probably not going to reread to figure out what I missed.
The Just City was good fun
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for the first couple hundred pages, walking the line between utopian and dystopian fiction to tell a smart, memorable story about the ethics of social change and the nature of happiness.However, the last act or so didn't delight me the way the beginning did. The narrative lost its tension, and the metaphysics of Walton's world stopped working for me.
I should explain that I am a very bad reader of fantasy fiction when it comes to metaphysics. I am a hopeless materialist and when fantasy worlds start making metaphysical claims that aren't true in our world, I find it easy to feel alienated as a reader. (An example that readers might recognize comes from Gaiman's A Game of You, when Wanda is excluded from female magic because she's not biologically female. I love A Game of You, but I think it's an odd choice to make Sandman's gods reinforce a gender essentialism that in our world is purely cultural.)
So I am all for reading about a world where the Greek gods and reincarnation are real, but Walton lost me when she made these facts central to the characters' philosophical dialogues. Maybe I am missing some subtlety of what she was trying to accomplish, but since the book lost me narratively as well, I'm probably not going to reread to figure out what I missed.
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LibraryThing member Guide2
Could not finish this one: Not badly written, just not very interesting for me. Lost me when they started creating the city with all the discussions about what was best for this and for that, etc...
Awards
Mythopoeic Awards (Finalist — Adult Literature — 2017)
Prometheus Award (Nominee — Novel — 2016)
NPR: Books We Love (2015)
Language
Original language
English
Original publication date
2015-01
Physical description
368 p.; 5.8 inches
ISBN
9780765332660
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